At some point in every creative journey, things slow down - or even fall apart. What that stage feels like, and sounds like for every composer is wildly different.
At some point in every creative journey, things slow down - or even fall apart. What that stage feels like, and sounds like for every composer is wildly different.
Visit missioncommissionpodcast.com for a full listing of pieces, performers, and recordings included in this episode.
Intro:
This is Mission: Commission [intro]
Melissa Smey:
Welcome to Mission: Commission. A podcast demystifying the process of how classical music gets made. I'm your host, Melissa Smey, and I'm the Artistic Director of Miller Theatre at Columbia University. On Mission: Commission, we're following the creative journey of three composers as they create vibrant new works of classical music. And my goal with this podcast is to provide insight into that journey.
On this episode, it's going to get messy! The creative process is rarely linear or straightforward, and we've heard our composers talk about this. There is no roadmap, no signposts or markers. And sometimes there are detours and dead ends. But in the moment, how do you know the difference between a detour or an avenue that's worth pursuing? That's what I'm going to be talking about with our composers: Augusta Read Thomas, Marcos Balter, and Courtney Bryan. When I selected these composers for Mission: Commission, I wanted to show a diversity of compositional practice. So you could get real insight into how these composers work and how they think. And their practices couldn't be more different from each other.
So let's start with Courtney Bryan. Courtney is going out on a limb with this project and trying something outside of her usual practice. She's trying to figure out how to build a model of collaboration with the musician she's working with -- trombonist, Andrae Murchison. Her piece for piano and trombone is called "Synchronicity." Courtney and Andrae are keeping audio diaries and sharing their thoughts and musical ideas with each other on a weekly basis. From those conversations, another idea has emerged between them -- joy. Here are some excerpts from Andrae Murchison’s audio diary:
Andrae Murchison:
Good morning, Courtney. Waking up this morning, thinking about joy and reflecting on the conversation we had yesterday. And it made me think about how joy is cleansing. How joy represents purity. Joy is so fresh and so clean. Joy is the water in which we drink -- clean water. Joy is the balance of silence and noise. Joy is the balance of a holy and naughty. Joy is the eternal spirit. Joy is anticipation. Joy is consummation. Joy is the birth of an innocent newborn baby. Joy is the wisdom of our elders. Joy is the admiration of love, the tasting of good food, the sharing of beautiful gifts. Joy is more than happiness will ever be. Joy is a symbol of victory.
These are some of the things that I wrote down this morning as I reflect on joy. So I give thanks for this time to zoom in on this beautiful synchronicity of our joy.
Courtney Bryan:
Good morning, Andrae. Your poem and your expression of joy is just so moving. And there's so much in there that I don't have anything to add. Just want to respond. When you said the balance of silence and noise. That was just a hallelujah moment. So I love that. The holy and the naughty, the innocence, like, of a baby. It's just so beautiful. And I love this opportunity to focus on joy, especially as adults, because joy is something I really associate with that innocence of being a child. And I feel like adulthood is a lot of trying to remember or recapture it, you know, experience it in a different way. I'm enjoying thinking about this joy and I'm thinking about simplicity and how to create some sounds that are complete joy, like unapologetic joy. So I'm looking forward to exploring that together.
Melissa Smey:
Hi Courtney! So from your audio diaries this week, you and Andrae have been talking about joy and about what unapologetic joy sounds like. Will you say more about that and what led you to that idea?
Courtney Bryan:
Yeah, so I think Andrae and I have found a process that works for us is that each week I just sort of come up with a different word and just try to start off, like, with a prompt. Like, I'll either say the word and have something I say about it, or I'll just say the word and maybe he could start it, you know, either way. I really wanted to think about joy, and it's harder to feel unapologetic joy as you experience life. And so to make that, like, a point to do it, it's just like, it's a nice adventure. It's like, I just think about childhood, you know, I think about things and it's very simple things like the joy of sitting with your cup of coffee. It really just like sitting there and enjoying it and not just thinking about this is caffeine to wake me up, but like really enjoying like the taste and like the moments. And I’m really enjoying talking about that with Andrae because of his ideas of joy being greater than happiness. So that discussion is very exciting and I'm still, you know, working on thinking about like, sounds for that.
Melissa Smey:
And are you working out any ideas on the piano yet? Is he doing anything on the trombone yet? Is it just conversation?
Courtney Bryan:
So this week it was just conversation. Last week I liked getting into the sounds, like when I was thinking about light. It was easier for me to go to the piano and think about it. And I think probably because it's something I've been thinking about musically.
Courtney Bryan:
...Could be different, like running figures [rapid, repeating patterns on the piano].
Courtney Bryan:
But also Andrae, unrelated, sent me a clip of him playing something.
Andrae Murchison:
[Improvising on the trombone]
Courtney Bryan:
That I thought was just amazing and I found out that he told me it was a joke. I didn't know, but it was a very like technically brilliant joke, if it was a joke.
Andrae Murchison:
[Chromatically sliding up scale on trombone]
Courtney Bryan:
So it was a slide trombone and he was playing these like, kind of, like a whale, like where he would do like a high note and let it fall. And then he would follow with these, like descending arpeggios.
Andrae Murchison:
[Ascending and descending arpeggios on trombone]
Courtney Bryan:
Like a high pitched thing that falls and then he's like [imitating the sounds of the trombone], something like that. And then he would alternate and he was just doing all these like crazy sounds.
Andrae Murchison:
[Continued improvisation on trombone]
Courtney Bryan:
And I was like "Oh! I like this!" I was like, "what's that look like written down?" But once he sent that I started hearing stuff for the project because he was playing all these technical things that were, it was humorous, but also like had these very interesting techniques that were unique to the trombone. So it gave me ideas and maybe the fact, and I'm realizing this as I'm talking to you, the fact that he sent me this musical joke on the week that we're talking about joy, I'm like, "okay, maybe we did actually share content" without it being like a structured, like, "let's talk about this." But one thing I would say is last week, it was easy to take the word "light" and create ideas off of that. Or I should say it was natural because it's something I've been thinking about for a while. So I had certain sounds whether it was like arpeggios going upwards on the piano, like on the higher range, I was thinking about rays of light or I had, like, different harmonies. And it's just something that I've thought about in earlier work. And this week with joy, I didn't give myself a strict goal to do that, but I also felt it was more challenging. So I didn't quite yet come up with like an improvisation that I thought was joy. So whether it's a stuckness or not, I would say that I realized that some weeks might be easier than others to say, "Oh, here's what I'm hearing."
Melissa Smey:
Well so, I want to ask you about the idea of a false start or a creative block. And so far as you've been charting your own creative process, have you come across any blocks, and what were they?
Courtney Bryan:
Yeah, that's such an important question to think about because it's inevitable. It is helpful for me to think about when they happen, how they feel, and how I deal with it. I definitely get blocks regularly. I would say that anytime I'm starting a project, there's like the mix of the overwhelming excitement of an idea for the project. And then there's the getting into the creating the material. And at that point, I have the range of excitement and then facing all of my fears just about creative process. So, at this point I just actually build that into my process. Like I used to judge myself for questioning myself, which turns into a vicious cycle.
But now I just accept that I'm going to have, like, doubt and fear because something that's very important to me as an artist is that every project is an exploration of something new. So my goal is not to ever get to a point where like, "okay, I have this, here's how I do things, and I've just got to check the boxes and plug it in." I'm not interested in plugging in. For me, because every project is a chance to explore and to have discovery that comes with, like, things not working out, or it comes with being stuck sometimes. And so I just have to remind myself of that.
And some of the things I've done over the past few years to deal with my anxiety and the creative process is just to have items around that really help me. For example, I have stones and I usually have rose quartz around, which it has to do with love and a lot of times like with self-love. So these things help remind me, like, if I'm feeling anxiety, whether in the creative process or just anytime I have things that I can hold or look at that remind me of positivity. And same with artwork I have around, or I have a lot of different statues of Mother Mary. It's interesting, I'm not technically Catholic, but I'm just fascinated with Mary. That kind of helps me, too, and at some point there's always the part where if you keep with it that there is the breakthrough moment, like, "okay, here's an idea. And now I can take this one idea and see where that leads me for the project." From the years of doing what I'm doing, I can draw from my experiences, or I can draw from things that I've been working on for a long time. I have to remind myself, like I'm not starting out at this of, like, even though each project is a discovery, there's certain skills I've been working on for a long time. And I can always just have confidence in that. So yeah, the pacing is very important.
Melissa Smey:
So if we think about process and outcomes, I'm curious, you know, is there a stage in your process where you start to think about outcomes? And when does that moment arrive?
Courtney Bryan:
I do think it's a good time for me to start thinking about what I want to do, process as far as the composition. My next step for this coming week is continue with the exploring theme by theme, but thinking about things that are unique to trombone.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah.
Courtney Bryan:
Or I think it gets me excited thinking about how I want to notate things. Like how exact do I want to be in notation? And how much do I want to go, really based on how we've been talking about words, and more, like, guidelines for improvisation. So I'm excited to get to that stage of the project. of just trying out different approaches to notation to, for what seems best for this project.
Melissa Smey:
Well, this was so fun. What a good chat we had today!
Courtney Bryan:
Thank you. And talking with you is definitely a big part of this process. So I love that. I'm like, "okay, okay, this is the next step."
Melissa Smey:
Onto our next composer, Augusta Read Thomas or "Gusty." Gusty has been working on a piece for solo percussion in two movements. The first movement is called "Enchanted Invocation" and it's coming along well. And then, Gusty moved on to the second movement. The story of that second movement was recorded in her audio diaries, and I'll let her take it from here:
Augusta Read Thomas:
I spent much of the past eight, nine, and ten days working on the second movement of our piece. Thinking about what it could be, what it might be, how it might balance with the first movement, "Enchanted Invocations," and about the instrumentation that we had settled on, which is solo marimba with drums. I made at least ten false starts, maybe twenty false starts. I just kept getting stuck and found nothing that was any good. So there you have it! That's what I did recently. But finally, I was able to find the piece, or maybe it found me. By going through so many false starts with it, I was able to hone in on the directions I wanted to take. Anyway, I finally figured out what to do. And in addition to the drums that will be in front of the marimba. I'm also adding some instruments played by the percussionist's feet, which are with kick pedals. I am using a kick pedal for a low bass drum [sound a low bass drum], a cowbell [sound of a cowbell], and a splash symbol [sound of splash symbol]. My working title for the second movement is "Groove Riddle."
[MUSIC - "GROOVE RIDDLE" BY AUGUSTA READ THOMAS]
Augusta Read Thomas:
I think it will be fun to watch performances of this piece and I'm having an enormously great time and enjoying composing it.
[MUSIC CONT. - "GROOVE RIDDLE" BY AUGUSTA READ THOMAS]
Augusta Read Thomas:
Hi friends, this is Gusty. Well, I was working so hard on this project and in particular, the second movement and the whole piece that I described in my last voice memo, "Groove Riddle." I think I've spent about 80 hours on it, maybe 80 and a half, 85. I mean it just an enormous amount of time. And I sent a draft of the score to John Corkill, the percussionist, and we had a long conversation about it by phone. And he's super excited about it, as am I, and so on. But over this past weekend, I decided to abandon it. So that's that! Partly because in order to do that piece in the right way, it needs to last at least 7 minutes or 8 minutes, I have come to realize, and that would be completely out of proportion with the first movement. In addition, my whole initial concept for the second movement, which I did about 10 different versions and tries of, still seems the strongest to me. I can see that it's the strongest now that I've completely gone down the rabbit hole of "Groove Riddle." So it's difficult. And I'm looking forward to going back at the challenge of it very, very much. At this point, I'm feeling like writing an orchestra piece would be easier than writing a piece for solo marimba. But in any case I am working really hard. This is the creative process of, you know, throwing things out, starting over, starting over again, trying something else, starting over again and so forth.
[MUSIC CONT. - "GROOVE RIDDLE" BY AUGUSTA READ THOMAS]
Melissa Smey:
Well hello, Gusty!
Augusta Read Thomas:
Good morning, Melissa.
Melissa Smey:
So tell me what happened this week.
Augusta Read Thomas:
The crux of the problem is that with a marimba, you only have four mallets. You can only get four notes, and you can only do that in these quick chords if the hands are perfectly lined up. Because otherwise the elbows are flying, like to the left, to the right, up, down, reach, you know, two feet down, one foot up, move your arm. It's very, very difficult whereas for instance, on the piano, you can do these wicked fast chords with no problem.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. I want to unpack this a little bit, because you had said in your audio diary, at some point that writing an orchestra piece would be easier. And I'm curious, what's behind that.
Augusta Read Thomas:
Indeed. Writing solo works is difficult. Now writing, for instance, for solo violin is less difficult because you can have double stops, and implied counterpoint, and perhaps triple stops, or two different layers; one in pizzicato, and one in double stops, and then a high lyric line, and harmonics, and so forth. But writing a solo work for certain other instruments is much harder for me. Now, I love the bassoon, actually. Love it. What a gorgeous instrument. But writing a piece for solo bassoon—that's hard. That's really, really hard. So when I think about writing a piece for solo marimba, and especially one where I don't want to just do arpeggios, or just like minimalist riffs, or just a texture, or little motives that spin around and around, you know, I want to actually write a piece of music that has harmony, and counterpoint, and inner life, and rhythmic syntax changes, and timbre, and all these things that I love to craft. But you’ve just got one marimba, it's all wood. You have four mallets. You know, it really has to all be about pure material. You have to be a very crafty composer about building material for that instrument.
And in a way, writing for orchestra would be easier because all of a sudden you have this whole orchestra and you can make any chord you want, in any color you want, and you can crossfade the colors, or you could crossfade the tessituras, or use mutes or not, or strings, or winds, or brass. And so, it becomes one of these things where whatever material you have, there's a palette for it. And that's what I mean when I say writing for orchestra like writing a whole 20 minute orchestra piece seems easier than writing a five or four minute piece for solo marimba.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. Yeah. Well so, how important is it to go down the rabbit hole, as you say, to go all the way in the other direction, in order to realize that this is the wrong direction?
Augusta Read Thomas:
I'm very obsessed. Because once I get something going, I can't stop. And what happens is because my music is organic, one step leads to the next, to the next. And you can't just abandon after 13 steps because steps 26 and 89 and 127 are implied in steps 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. So for me, I kind of have to flesh it all out and go all the way there, and see where the material wants to lead, and why it wants to lead there, and how I want to let it go there, listen deeply to it, even though I'm writing it, it feels like it's writing me.
Melissa Smey:
Well, so it's funny because when I had been listening to the audio diary, my planned question was to ask you if it's hard to abandon something that you've put so much time into. But hearing you talk about it now, I wonder, is it a relief, right? If you can feel it, you embody this music and you can feel it, it's not right. So is it not hard? It, is it a relief to let it go? How does that feel for you?
Augusta Read Thomas:
Well, like with "Groove Riddle" for kick percussion and marimba, I'm kind of excited about it.
Melissa Smey:
Okay.
Augusta Read Thomas:
It's just now it's now on the back burner. It's like this thing that I'm building that's sort of a friend. It's my little friend and it's over there. It's waiting for me to come back. In terms of abandoning, like, an improvisation where I think, "well, that wasn't very good," or "this could have been better," or "that's not integral," or "that is so cliche, that's ridiculous" or whatever it may be. I'm moving quickly through those, just jettisoning things that I find not to be strong enough. And of course, what makes something strong, and who decides, and on what terms? But I feel that in my own work, because it's so organic, pieces have an inner logic. I want to, kind of, let the pieces build up on their own. And people may or may not like my music, but you can hear that they are very much built from somebody who's hearing them. So there is that sense of, like, my stomach or my soul being in those.
Melissa Smey:
Well, in hearing you talk about "Groove Riddle" in the way that it sounded like a choreography, right? The way that the musician would be playing marimba and a bass drum. And I can visualize it when you're describing it, right? That if they're going to play that kick bass drum and it has to be in the left foot. And I think it's only because you, in that moment, you are the musician in that moment and the composer, right? Because otherwise you wouldn't be thinking about it in that way, it seems to me.
Augusta Read Thomas:
No, that's exactly right. And the piece that is going to be our second movement that I've also been working on now, boy, it feels like five weeks or something. I just keep like abandoning it and restarting, but my working title for that is "Amalgamation." But I'm also dancing that one out. It's a fun challenge. Just tricky. You know, it's just fascinating.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. It's like a puzzle.
Augusta Read Thomas:
It's like a puzzle.
Melissa Smey:
And now our third composer, Marcos Balter. Marcos had begun pulling this piece together the very first week of this year, the same week as the Capitol riot. And the events that unfolded deeply affected Marcos, who didn't work on his piece during this time.
Marcos Balter:
It's been an interesting week. I was, you know, just trying to process everything that has been going on. And I don't know, I just got to a point in which I was even questioning if processing is the right thing to do, you know? Not a lot of, you know, music making, no music writing whatsoever, just because there was absolutely no space for that whatsoever. And yeah, a lot of reflecting.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. Would you describe this as a creative block or something else?
Marcos Balter:
I mean, I don't know if I would call it a creative block. It's a block -- I think that we're facing a human block and I just happen to be a creator who is also a human being.
Melissa Smey:
Sure. And something that we had talked about earlier, when you were talking about your process and the idea that if you had a year to write a piece that a big part of that time, you would spend it gestating the piece and thinking about it and meditating on it. I think you said you needed, it needed to marinate in your head for a while. And it was definitely, you know, with that theoretical year, it would have been a majority of the time. And then the actual writing of the piece comes later and comes in a more rapid succession. And so I'm curious to know this, our process together is much shorter than a year, and thinking about it, if it mapped in a proportional way, you would definitely still be in the thinking and gestating stage. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that.
Marcos Balter:
Sure. I mean, yes. What you said is exactly how I usually think about composing, how I go about composer. It is true though that this format, you know, pushes that to a dangerously compressed and compact degree which I've never really done before. So this is going to be an interesting experience. I guess, what is different now is that the space for marinating is not quite there or it wasn't quite there this week.
Melissa Smey:
Sure
Marcos Balter:
You know, I wasn't, I wasn't really thinking about music this week. You know, the whole listening to ideas, or thinking about ideas, it just wasn't there. I was thinking of the world, I was thinking of all of us, I was thinking of, you know, the sadness of the—of how frail democracies are, even when we think that they are solid. You know, I was thinking of the fact that I was born in a military dictatorship and I lived in one until I was seven years old. And you know, I come from a country that is right now going through, you know, a period in which our democracy is also in jeopardy because of our president, you know? And all of this happening during a world pandemic, which is completely out of control. So yeah, I guess if I were to tell you that I was listening to music in my head right now that I should be committed.
Melissa Smey:
So thinking back to you as a person, then, this week, how are you dealing with all of this? I don't — for me, it could be so hard to sit with discomfort. I want to do something, I want to act, I want to change it. And so I'm curious for you, how are you dealing with things this week?
Marcos Balter:
Oh, see, I mean, that actually perhaps is where being a composer helps because sitting with discomfort is the name of the profession. We do that willingly. So that is helping me as an individual, you know, to really, sort of, look at it, you know, try to not disengage and look the other way when all these things are going on, you know? So embrace dissonance as I do with, you know, other areas of my life and see where they take you. And being kind to myself as well, not pushing me towards productivity when productivity is an irresponsible act. I've been talking to a lot of composers these days about this idea of, should we be producing, should we be writing? You know, and a lot of folks tend to think that, like, during times of crisis is when an artist’s voice becomes even more important, which I see. Which I see the point. And for some folks, all these events that are going on have actually fueled their imagination. And I'm very grateful for them, but that's not who I am right now. I don't feel that, you know, for me, you know, that, that position is giving me, as an individual, what I need, in order to nourish my soul, you know, for my art making, and for my human existence. But of course, you know, there's life. And, you know, we talk about art as being this sort of, you know, mythical unicorn, but it's also my profession, it's your profession. And with that in mind, we need to do things. We have commitments, we have deadlines, we have all of that. So it's a balance between being kind to myself and not being irresponsible to my duties. If I will succeed, that remains to be seen.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. It's helpful to unpack that because I think everyone can identify with the feeling of like, I don't want to go to work today. I am not motivated to do my job today, or my work today. Everyone can identify with that no matter what your occupation might be or whatever your work is. And so it's helpful to hear a composer be able to unpack that for us.
Marcos Balter:
Yeah. I mean, and there are sides of my life in which I don't have the space to give myself the pause that I'm giving to my writing. You know, I'm also an educator.
Melissa Smey:
Right.
Marcos Balter:
And I have a duty as an educator to look after the well-being and education of my students. So yeah, I'm pushing where I feel like others depend on my pushing, you know, and trying to sort of, like, assess what is something that I can manage, you know? So like for our commission, for instance, I knew, you know, when I made a choice of not being productive for seven days, that I would have to make my later days even crazier. You know, it's really funny because this, you know, of like this show-and-tell of the creative process, talking with composers, you know, from beginning to end about their processes, I will make a confession here: to me, it always sounds like people are lying.
Melissa Smey:
Like if you hear it, when you hear people saying it?
Marcos Balter:
You hear people like retelling their processes and it sounds very linear. It sounds like there is a progression. I'm always like, especially when I know the folks, I'm like, "Oh, this is so not how it goes!" You know, because if you have this, you know, I mean, it's a really interesting exercise.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah. Yeah.
Marcos Balter:
But it's an exercise that is almost an anathema to the reality, you know, of the composition process. I guess the logical way of thinking of it will be like, "oh! Now they're sketching, and now they're developing ideas, and now they're doing this" when it's all over the place. It's like the messiest kitchen ever. With a thousand frying pans going on at the same time and things popping in the toaster and microwaves beeping, you know, and somehow a dish comes out of it.
Melissa Smey:
So it's like this perfectly plated, like with polished edges. Yeah. So, it's funny because, you know, at Miller in our Composer Portrait series, we have the onstage discussion with the composers. And what I like about it is that it's a chance to hear from the composer in their own words and for audiences to see them as real people and get to know them as real people. And so, what I so appreciate about these conversations with you is that you're being real. You're like "it was a bad week. I had a bad week." And I think that it's helpful for people to know that, right? The idea that we want to demystify this process of classical music or demystify the idea of classical music, which for a lot of people, it feels intangible and we're making it very real. I think it's so valuable, right? And it's hard. I mean, it requires tremendous vulnerability on your part and honesty on your part to be open to sharing that with me and with audiences, but there's something so beautiful about it.
Marcos Balter:
Oh, thank you. I do tend to like whenever peers, whenever artists that I admire are truthful to their issues and their challenges, because that sort of demystifies, the idea of what an artist is, or artists that quote-unquote "do well", or quote-unquote, "have prominence." You know, that we tend to think of these people as superheroes of, you know, beings that are above feelings, and above failures, and all of that. And I've, you know, really tried throughout my life to embrace my failures, and embrace my problems, embrace my challenges, and share them with others and be like, "this is not me telling you what to do or how to do things. This is me talking about my journey, hoping that some of it may resonate with you and help you out in whatever way that can be helpful." I like when my artists, you know, are flawed, it makes me listen to music in a way that I think it's actually truthful to music listening, which is not fetishizing about sound, but understanding the totality. You know, like, to understanding of what embodiment means, that it also means understanding where this is coming from, how this is affecting me, how this is affecting the person who created it, or the people who created it, how it is affecting the people who are performing it, how all of those things are interacting with one another. This is also important that the more humane we are, the more pieces of information, of emotional information we have about music making, the more complex and beautiful music can be.
Melissa Smey:
So true. That is a beautiful place I think, for us to pause for this week.
Marcos Balter:
Great! Well, always fun to talk to you, even among this craziness.
Melissa Smey:
Yeah, I'm so grateful. Thank you.
Marcos Balter:
My pleasure. And again, hopefully next week, I'll be a little more, we'll all be a little more cheerful.
Melissa Smey:
Sometimes you need to push yourself into the unknown. Navigating roadblocks, detours, and dead ends and trust that you have the skills to make it happen. You don't know at all what the outcome will be, but you’ve got to be brave enough to do it anyway, as our composers have been this week. On the next episode of Mission: Commission, we talk about how our composers give shape to the music they're writing and the battle between the editor and the creator.
Mission: Commission is a production of Miller Theatre at Columbia University.
Major support for Mission: Commission is provided by the Francis Goelet Charitable Lead Trusts and the National Endowment for the Arts. Support for Miller Theatre is provided by the New York State Council on the Arts and the Howard Gilman Foundation. Support for contemporary music is provided by the Aaron Copland Fund for Music and the Amphion Foundation. This episode was produced by Golda Arthur and me, with Adrienne Stortz, Lauren Cognetti, and Taylor Riccio. Erik Gomez is our sound designer and engineer.
If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and, even better, leave a review on Apple podcasts. It really helps the show. Thanks for listening. See you next week!